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Reply with quote  #1 

Like so many other things, I think outside the box---or better yet, I use the whole box.

 

Like the Thread on "The Scrouge of Royalty and Aristocracy", this thread seeks to defend Monarchy and give it another tool in order to survive and thrive.

 

We all know the story of Henry VIII, how he could not sire progeny for the continuation of his line.  He asked for an anulment and was denied and his right hand man St. Thomas More went against his lord in favor of the Church's teaching. This caused innummerable problems and led a once "Defender of the Faith" to break from the Church and create a nationalist Church.

 

The absence of royal progeny is a bane for royalism.  The effect of no effective princes affects the governing house and the people.  It is disastrous.  Furthermore, with Fate, the sustainablity of ONE SMALL family is highly problematic.  It leads to instablity at home and abroad and one small family is a bane on the effectiveness of the royal office.

 

The leading problem which Henry VIII exemplifies is the disastrousness of monagamy for monarchy.  Therefore, in certain circumstances, Polygamy is necessary for the longevity and sustainablity of Monarchism.

 

--------------------------------------

First.  Every Law has an exception. 

 

In this regard, This is a fact of life.  Life, as Francis Parker Yockey, is irrational! Not everything is answered according to strict rules.  Life doesn't follow rules.  The general does but not the exceptions.  Life is full of exceptions where the rules don't apply.

 

Second. Polygamy is not a strict sin but was practised by the Patriarchs and Kings of Israel!  Polygamy is not morally wrong in and of itself.  King David and King Solomon had many many wives.  Nowhere are they condemned for this practice.

 

----------------------

It was erroneous, very erroneous for the Church NOT to consider allowing King Henry the VIII to practice Polygamy in order to secure royal progeny!  I believe that this would have solved the problem and kept the English Church in the fold.

 

For the general public and for commoners, monogamy is the rule.  When a King, and the Royal family are threatened with being childless, I believe it is necessary and right that the Royal engage in Polygamy in order to secure its future existence! 

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Reply with quote  #2 
A better deal would have been to be content with the female heirs.

Polygamy can be shown from scripture to be not in accordance with the 'Original Intent' quite easily, and with only a little work, shown to be in direct violation of the Divine Will.

As a political matter, the Annulment would have been a better 'compromise' than polygamy by far.  (Annulment was an established, accepted procedure - witness Eleanore of Aquitaine).


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darthkorbus

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Reply with quote  #3 

First of all, Henry was in fact able to create "progeny":  his daughter Mary (who became Mary I). Even at the time, there was no rule against a woman acceding the English throne (as opposed to continental thrones), and in fact she did accede the throne.  Secondly, no one, not even a king is above the laws of God and His Church.  Politics do not supersede religion, as St. Thomas More knew all so well:  "I am the King's good servant, but God's first." 


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Reply with quote  #4 

'Like the Thread on "The Scrouge of Royalty and Aristocracy", this thread seeks to defend Monarchy and give it another tool in order to survive and thrive.'

The only tool that will allow a proper Christian kingdom to survive is for the Royal Family to adopt or return to Catholicism and defend it as the only legitimate religion of the realm.

 
'We all know the story of Henry VIII, how he could not sire progeny for the continuation of his line.'

This is a lie, deliberately put forth by 'Protestants' who seek to legitimise Henry VIII's royal hissy-fit.  As Darth Korbus pointed out, Henry VIII did in fact 'sire progeny'.


'He asked for an anulment and was denied and his right hand man St. Thomas More went against his lord in favor of the Church's teaching. This caused innummerable problems'

Well, what caused the problems was not that St. Thomas upheld the Church's position, but that Henry went against it.  As 'Defender of the Faith' he had a positive obligation to defend the Catholic Church.


'The absence of royal progeny is a bane for royalism.'

Not necessarily.  The Holy Roman Empire had a limited elective monarchial system.  In theory, anyone could be elected Emperor.  In practice, the imperium was held by one family until the line died out or lost ability to lead.


'The effect of no effective princes affects the governing house and the people.  It is disastrous.  Furthermore, with Fate, the sustainablity of ONE SMALL family is highly problematic.  It leads to instablity at home and abroad and one small family is a bane on the effectiveness of the royal office.'

'The leading problem which Henry VIII exemplifies is the disastrousness of monagamy for monarchy.  Therefore, in certain circumstances, Polygamy is necessary for the longevity and sustainablity of Monarchism.'

Not just no, but hell no.  'Royalism' (or 'monarchism') is not the over-riding concern: the Faith of the people is.  Every Christian will be scandalised by a polygamous sovereign.

If this were China, or Japan, or someplace in the Middle East about which we were speaking, then perhaps polygamy would be acceptable.  In fact the Chinese and Japanese sovereigns did use concubines for a time in order to guarantee male offspring.  So, for them, polygamy is all fine and well.  Not for Christians.

 
'First.  Every Law has an exception.'

That does not make the exceptions desireable or right.

 
'In this regard, This is a fact of life.  Life, as Francis Parker Yockey, is irrational! Not everything is answered according to strict rules.  Life doesn't follow rules.  The general does but not the exceptions.  Life is full of exceptions where the rules don't apply.'

It is precisely when we refuse to follow God's rules (i.e. the Faith) that problems occcur.  Adopting polygamy would only make matters worse for the West.


'Second. Polygamy is not a strict sin but was practised by the Patriarchs and Kings of Israel!'

Yes, Polygamy is mortally sinful.


'Polygamy is not morally wrong in and of itself.'

Being mortally sinful, Polygamy is in fact totally wrong.


'King David and King Solomon had many many wives.'

Big deal.  It is completely irrelevant.


'Nowhere are they condemned for this practice.'

Then again, they were Jews and not Christians.


'It was erroneous, very erroneous for the Church NOT to consider allowing King Henry the VIII to practice Polygamy in order to secure royal progeny!  I believe that this would have solved the problem and kept the English Church in the fold.'

That is totally false and completely ridiculous.  The argument you're putting forth is that, it was wrong for the Church to grant Henry VIII's request for a divorce because it led to the defection of England.  That is pure and utter nonsense.

It was the vanity of the English 'monarch', solidified by his heretical offspring, that caused the separation of England from Christendom.  Better to lose an entire nation than to permit the corruption of doctrine that would destroy the Faith itself.

 
'For the general public and for commoners, monogamy is the rule.  When a King, and the Royal family are threatened with being childless, I believe it is necessary and right that the Royal engage in Polygamy in order to secure its future existence!'

So, a double standard of morality?  God commands one thing for kings and another for everyone else?  Where is that upheld in the Church's traditions?


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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertgea

'Like the Thread on "The Scrouge of Royalty and Aristocracy", this thread seeks to defend Monarchy and give it another tool in order to survive and thrive.'

The only tool that will allow a proper Christian kingdom to survive is for the Royal Family to adopt or return to Catholicism and defend it as the only legitimate religion of the realm.

Yeah, that worked so well HM King Louis XVI, didn't it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertgea

'We all know the story of Henry VIII, how he could not sire progeny for the continuation of his line.'

This is a lie, deliberately put forth by 'Protestants' who seek to legitimise Henry VIII's royal hissy-fit.  As Darth Korbus pointed out, Henry VIII did in fact 'sire progeny'.

Henry wanted male descendants (and got one).  The cause of the 'Royal Hissy Fit' was his desire for 'accpetable heirs'.  Thats not just a line..The implication that he didn't have ANY heirs is and was repudiated by the most vocal of the protestants on this Forum (yours Truly), see the first post in reply to Wheeler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertgea


'He asked for an annulment and was denied and his right hand man St. Thomas More went against his lord in favor of the Church's teaching. This caused innummerable problems'

Well, what caused the problems was not that St. Thomas upheld the Church's position, but that Henry went against it.  As 'Defender of the Faith' he had a positive obligation to defend the Catholic Church.

Yep, (and he did just that !)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertgea

'The absence of royal progeny is a bane for royalism.'

Not necessarily.  The Holy Roman Empire had a limited elective monarchial system.  In theory, anyone could be elected Emperor.  In practice, the imperium was held by one family until the line died out or lost ability to lead.


'The effect of no effective princes affects the governing house and the people.  It is disastrous.  Furthermore, with Fate, the sustainablity of ONE SMALL family is highly problematic.  It leads to instablity at home and abroad and one small family is a bane on the effectiveness of the royal office.'

'The leading problem which Henry VIII exemplifies is the disastrousness of monagamy for monarchy.  Therefore, in certain circumstances, Polygamy is necessary for the longevity and sustainablity of Monarchism.'

Not just no, but hell no.  'Royalism' (or 'monarchism') is not the over-riding concern: the Faith of the people is.  Every Christian will be scandalised by a polygamous sovereign.

If this were China, or Japan, or someplace in the Middle East about which we were speaking, then perhaps polygamy would be acceptable.  In fact the Chinese and Japanese sovereigns did use concubines for a time in order to guarantee male offspring.  So, for them, polygamy is all fine and well.  Not for Christians.

 

We are agreed, polygamy didn't work real well for the Patriarchs, it would be a disaster today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertgea

'First.  Every Law has an exception.'

That does not make the exceptions desireable or right.

 
'In this regard, This is a fact of life.  Life, as Francis Parker Yockey, is irrational! Not everything is answered according to strict rules.  Life doesn't follow rules.  The general does but not the exceptions.  Life is full of exceptions where the rules don't apply.'

It is precisely when we refuse to follow God's rules (i.e. the Faith) that problems occcur.  Adopting polygamy would only make matters worse for the West.


'Second. Polygamy is not a strict sin but was practised by the Patriarchs and Kings of Israel!'

Yes, Polygamy is mortally sinful.

We again agree !

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertgea

'Polygamy is not morally wrong in and of itself.'

Being mortally sinful, Polygamy is in fact totally wrong.


'King David and King Solomon had many many wives.'

Big deal.  It is completely irrelevant.

Actually, they argue against the wisdom of the plan.  just look at the infighting within David's family, brought about by the multitude of mothers.  - And David was a man after God's own Heart (better than Defender of the Faith from the Pope!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertgea

'Nowhere are they condemned for this practice.'

Then again, they were Jews and not Christians.

You want the scriptural citations where the wrath of God came upon these men and their families as a result of this sin?  I can find some for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertgea

'It was erroneous, very erroneous for the Church NOT to consider allowing King Henry the VIII to practice Polygamy in order to secure royal progeny!  I believe that this would have solved the problem and kept the English Church in the fold.'

That is totally false and completely ridiculous.  The argument you're putting forth is that, it was wrong for the Church to grant Henry VIII's request for a divorce because it led to the defection of England.  That is pure and utter nonsense.

It was 'right' but 'unwise'. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertgea

It was the vanity of the English 'monarch', solidified by his heretical offspring, that caused the separation of England from Christendom.  Better to lose an entire nation than to permit the corruption of doctrine that would destroy the Faith itself.

 


It is possible that the church could have granted a 'divorce' from his brother's wife, and granted no more after that, which would have given England Mary, then perhaps what other offspring came of the second Union (if he didn't get his son by it).  Annulment with the Children remaining legitimate had been done before (Eleanore of Aquitaine)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertgea

'For the general public and for commoners, monogamy is the rule.  When a King, and the Royal family are threatened with being childless, I believe it is necessary and right that the Royal engage in Polygamy in order to secure its future existence!'

So, a double standard of morality?  God commands one thing for kings and another for everyone else?  Where is that upheld in the Church's traditions?


The Church was more free with Annulments for Kings than for Commoners......

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I should have been clear in what I meant as Progeny. 

 

First off, LEADERSHIP IS MALE.  The Spartan people never never never allowed for female leadership.  Leadership is NOT for females! This is what Nature teaches and the Scripture teach.  The principle is "You are what you follow".  If my monarch is female, I must be a female to follow a female. The whole Trinity is Masculine, there is NO feminity in the Trinity.  Nor should there be in the Monarchy.  Monarchy requires MALE leadership. For Christians to look the other way and even consider female leadership is unsound.  In all cases, males are to be reared and breed for leadership.  And Christians are to make that happen.  There is NO possible way that Christianity should support females in Leadership roles.  If and when there is VALID and competent Male Leadership, the female head like the Queen of England needed to step aside and let the Males take the Leadership!  There is NO justification for any female to hold onto any leadership position when there is a mature, competent and valid male in the wings.

 

What you fail to account here is Order.  Christians uphold Order.  Leadership is Male.  That is the Order.  Male is in authority over female.  Female is under Male headship.  At all times, it is Christian duty to uphold that.

 

Not only are females unfit for leadership, females don't carry the FAMILY NAME!!!  Females lose their family name and adopt their husbands family.  To say that Henry VIII could carry his line through Mary is unsatisfactory and unreal! 

 

Quote:

Politics do not supersede religion, as St. Thomas More knew all so well:  "I am the King's good servant, but God's first." 

And God created Nature as well.  As Christians we serve God when we are obedient to Scripture AND NATURE as well.  The King had in his power to take numerous wifes in order to procure MALE without recourse to divorce.  Monarchy is an exception to the rule. Without a large body of royal Male princes, Monarchy can not survive.

 

The failure Gilbert gea is that the Church failed to apply Scripture.  Scripture clearly points to polygamy as sometimes necessary.  Let's say after a war and a huge population of men are killed.  In order to repopulate the race and bring up manpower, polygamy would be necessary.  Necessity is a principle that the Catholic Church recognizes.  In some circumstances, Nature requires polygamy for survival.

 

Survival is key. 

 

Gilbert Gea makes my point:

 

Quote:

In practice, the imperium was held by one family until the line died out  

"...Until the line dies out".  Well, polygamy is a strategy that prevents "dying out".  You know Gilbert Gea, I thought the Church was about Life not Death!  And here Polygamy points to Life.  The Good is Life.  And in this instance if Polygamy prevents "the line from dying out", then it is a Good, and then perfectly normal and right and true.

 

The Catholic Church in its legalistic mindset of the Roman mentality is very destructive when taken to extremes.  Even Catholic jurists acknowledge when the Law must sleep.  Didn't Jesus point to the Story where King David ate the Shewbread!  Didn't David break the Law?  Was not the good Thief saved on the Cross without actual baptism? 

 

Legalism doesn't make good Faith practices.  The Spirit is.  Christianity is not Legalism Gilbert Gea.  Christianity follows the Good and the Truth.  Principles apply 95% of the time.  Not every situation is equal.

 

Quote:
That does not make the exceptions desireable or right.
The ability to discern is a virtue Gilbert Gea.  You seem to know nothing of Nature.  Life is not an Academic pursuit.  There is also something called Common Sense.  Common Sense and Truth work hand in hand.  Life is irrational and to apply Legalism each and every time to something that is Irrational is moronic!



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Polygamy is NOT a double standard. 

 

Do you know anything of the Bell Curve?  The Bell Curve is evident in everything in Nature.  The huge amount in the Middle is the Norm.  And then one as the "outside the middle"  Laws pertain to the specific body.  General Law is applied to the Middle.  Another law is applied to the exceptions.

 

In Catholic Morality we have this all the time!!!  For you Gilbert Gea to miss this is disturbing.

 

The law is "Thou shalt not murder". 

 

But then we are allowed an exception to murder when we do "Self-defense".  We are not to kill humans---that is the Law, then why does the Church allow us to kill in Self-defense?----Is that not a double standard?

 

If we can kill in some circumstances, then Polygamy is normal in some circumstances!

 

Consistency is the criteria of Truth!  What I see is selective thinking, we allow exceptions in the "not kill human" rule to allow for self-defense but when it comes to the survival of the Throne, we say Nyet! 

 

No, that is hypocritical!  The Catholic Church in Natural Law Theory allows for exceptions all the time.  The Annulment Courts of the Church today makes a mockery of the divorce law.   



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Polygamy like slavery is NOT morally sinful!

 

Nowhere is King David nor King Solomon condemned for multiple wifes!

 

And Jesus Christ is descended from these two people. King David committed murder and other sins but never was polygamy a sin!

 

 

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Reply with quote  #9 
Wheeler,
Henry's line carried on through Mary I and Elizabeth I after Edward VI died.  Mary I may have seemed like her Mother's line, but there is no doubting that Elizabeth I was 'her father's heir'.

Monarchs don't have a 'family name' they are known by their Realms.  Her Majesty signs as Elizabeth R.  her 'last name' is Queen (in Latin not Greek) - not Windsor!  What was the 'last name' of William I before the battle of hastings?

Her Majesty Ascended the Throne in the absence of any 'qualified male' to lead.  She has retained leadership in submission to her Oath of Office.  His Highness the Prince Charles of Wales will, God willing, ascended to throne when the time comes.



Wheeler,
Scripture trumps any other revelation of God except Christ Himself - and these two are never in disagreement.  When 'nature' is in conflict with the text, one must remember that nature suffers from the Fall of Adam. 

I challenge you to show me one text of scripture, taken in context that points out the necessity (much less the acceptability) of polygamy.



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Is the House of God divided?  If God created Nature, and as the Proverbs say, "God founded the earth with Wisdom", how does Scripture that also comes from God contradict what He did earlier?  You tell me that What God has done, He then contradicts himself?

 

Nature and Scripture come hand in hand.  Truth doesn't contradict each other.

 

What is a Miracle?  Is not a Miracle an exception to the Law?  Did not God cause the Sun to stand still---contrary to the Law of Nature.  Does not God allow for exceptions?  If the Sun can stand still and if King David could eat the Shewbread---Shows that God is not into Legalism.

 

The Faith is NOT Legalism but the Good. Scripture and Greek philosophy uphold the Good.

 

Christianity is about life and NOT death.  If Polygamy ensures the "LIFE" of the Royal line---Then it is a good!



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Prince Charles of Wales is quite capable of ascending the Throne which is his right.  The Queen must step aside and show Christian humility and let the Male assume leadership.  The lack of Male Leadership shows in the decline of Britain.  Not to say that Prince Charles is not the epitomy of masculinity either. 

 

The loss of masculinity of Britain shows.

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Reply with quote  #12 
WHEELER, by refusing to allow the possibility of female sovereigns, you are violating your own stated principle that there can and should be exceptions to general laws. You are not consistent. Male leadership is indeed the general rule in monarchies and can be the exclusive rule in countries (like France and Germany) where that is the tradition. However, that does not mean there cannot be exceptions! If a king does not have any sons, and there is no law or custom barring female succession, there is nothing wrong with his eldest daughter succeeding him. Some of the greatest monarchs in history have been female: Isabel I of Spain, Elizabeth I of England (from a non-Catholic point of view), Maria Theresa of Austria, Bohemia, & Hungary, and Catherine II of Russia.
Queen Elizabeth II has not abdicated and will not abdicate because she believes that she swore before God to serve her country as Queen for the rest of her life. I respect that conviction and so should you.
I agree that male succession should be the general rule, but it is hardly more sacrosanct than monogamous marriage, to which you are prepared to make exceptions!
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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WHEELER

Is the House of God divided?  If God created Nature, and as the Proverbs say, "God founded the earth with Wisdom", how does Scripture that also comes from God contradict what He did earlier?  You tell me that What God has done, He then contradicts himself?

Go read your bible,  man.  The Earth was cursed, and all of nature groaneth under the burden.  In Eden, there would have been no conflict between 'Nature' and 'Truth', but Adam ate, and the whole thing has been in a death spiral ever since.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WHEELER

Nature and Scripture come hand in hand.  Truth doesn't contradict each other.

 

Fallen man, and fallen nature are very often in opposition to Truth.




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BaronVonServers

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHEELER

Prince Charles of Wales is quite capable of ascending the Throne which is his right.  The Queen must step aside and show Christian humility and let the Male assume leadership.  The lack of Male Leadership shows in the decline of Britain.  Not to say that Prince Charles is not the epitomy of masculinity either. 

 

The loss of masculinity of Britain shows.



Her Majesty took an Oath before God, and made a Promise to Her People to serve her whole life, long or short.

Her Majesty is command of Scripture to reverence her Own Husband. There is not a command to surrender what is Her Own to any other (the Prince Philip can not assume the Crown, and the Prince Charles has no claim of Superiority in any fashion)

As I said in another thread, the Royals have more to fear from a mass of petty commoners who think themselves fit to judge them, than from any other quarter.

Your opinion of His Highness' masculinity is utterly worthless; - irrelevant, without foundation (of actual knowledge), and probably in disagreement with my own

Great Britain defended its colony of the Falkland Islands not so very long ago, against a male lead republic.  Her Majesty kicked the general's tail.

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Boy, now I know the feeling of a fish that has to struggle upstream just to spawn.

 

Yes, I can recognize that there can be female sovereigns because there are exceptions.  After some 40+ years on the throne, Queen Elizabeth can step down and let her son rule.  A nation needs Patriarchy.  Human society needs Patriarchy.  A Queen steps into the station when her husband the king dies in battle or of natural causes.  When her own sons are grown, sufficient in wisdom, strength and manliness, then she is to step aside and hand the office down. 

 

A Queen only takes the office as a surrogate until a male royal heir becomes mature enough to take office.

 

Service to God can also be seen as to step aside and let Nature take its course.

 

------------------

Human nature was damaged.  But the earth is founded on the Wisdom of God.  Nature, Physical nature, did not sin.  Everything in Nature follows the law.  It is only Human Nature that is not law abiding.  Original Sin operates in human affairs and has damaged the Human soul.  The devil, invited in by Adam, runs rampant through the cosmos in a deadly cat-and-mouse game with God.  But Nature herself, is, hardly damaging.

----------------------

Quote:
"But Christian departures from the monogamous norm were not limited to the occasional group of proto-hippies. Following Luther’s challenge to the authority of the established church, some early Protestant theologians argued for a return to the example of the ancient Jewish patriarchs as described in scripture. (Strictly speaking, they were advocates of polygyny, marriage to multiple wives. By definition, the term “polygamy” is more inclusive; it would cover the somewhat rarer practice of polyandry, in which a woman has several husbands.)

 

Luther himself concluded that it might be doctrinally permissible to be married to more than one woman at a time, at least in theory. Some of the more radical reformers in his wake also considered it a practical possibility. A fascinating account of this tendency in early Protestantism appears in After Polygamy Became a Sin: The Social History of Christian Polygamy by John Cairncross, published in 1974 and now out of print." from Paradise Lost

 

The question for the Church is "How do we preserve Monarchy?"  "How do we Make Monarchy stable?"  and we need to create a "Monarchy science".

 

Polygamy is what preserves a line from dying out, from instability because it affords a number of potential and numerous princes to step up and take charge.  When one King has shown himself incompetent or effeminate or both, we have many in the stable to pick from and take over.

 

----------------------------

What has European dynasties been threatened by???

 

 

TOO MUCH INBREEDING! Royal inbreeding has caused all sorts of problems for the houses in Germany, Russia and England!!!!!

 

Well, Polygamy solves this problem also!!

 

Polygamy solves many problems.  It solves male succession.  It solves inbreeding.  Something that does good and solves evil is NOT morally wrong! 

 

 

 

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